Episode 2.9 Transcript

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Welcome to Women Rabbis Talk – a podcast where women rabbis talk with other women rabbis about being women who are rabbis. Welcome. I’m Rabbi Emma Gottlieb. And I’m here with Rabbi Marci Bellows, and we can’t wait for the conversations to come. First, we’ll do a little bit of thinking together about things that we’re thinking about. So Marci, what are we thinking about?

Rabbi Marci Bellows
It’s funny, you should ask Emma, I have been thinking about this time on Long Island when I was working at my pulpit there and realizing how totally stressed I was, and how I remembered how important it was to me to always have an artistic outlet. It had been so long since I had done any music. And since I had done any theater, which have always been so very important to me, I took some time to think about how could I incorporate more of that into my life. And I realized that I was so close to Manhattan, I was only a 45 minute drive. And perhaps at night, especially on nights when I didn’t have meetings, I could drive into New York City, and no one would know. And so I scheduled classes for myself to study improvisation. And so I did! For years, I took improv classes, every parent’s biggest dream, and I actually went into the city, unbeknownst to my congregation, and my secret identity at night was as an improv student and performer. And it really proved to me how important play was for people in stressful jobs like ours. So how have you experienced that Emma? I thought it would be an interesting thing for us to talk about today.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
It’s such an interesting thing to talk about Marci. And I’m really curious to hear more about that experience. I, first of all, I I’m wondering how many of our listeners are now wondering, like, what does my Rabbi do at night that I don’t know about? Yes, we have lives when we leave the synagogue, it’s amazing. Or when we turn off zoom these days. Yeah, I’ve always been like a big fan of board games and play with other people like social play. And over the past year, I’ve had to learn more how to like how to have downtime with myself, yeah, to to, to learn how to have sort of stress free fun time on my own, you know how to how to achieve that. And so actually, like a lot of people who, who know me have been sort of laughing at me lately, but I’m really, it’s something I’m really enjoying is that I’ve started making Lego like adult Lego sets. And I started doing it in lockdown with some of the architecture sets. So I built Trafalgar Square, and then I built Paris and then I built San Francisco and then I built New York City and and it you know, it’s sort of a way to unplug and decompress and just focus my mind and my hands on something that’s light hearted and colorful. I think I get a lot of the same satisfaction and relaxation out of the needlepoint and sewing that I do as well quilting. And though those are things I’ve been doing for a long time and so I think the the sort of Lego is a new addition to that and you know, we I think you know, we were often asking our guests you know, what would surprise you to know about your your rabbis or about women rabbis? And I think it probably does surprise people to know that you know, in the evenings when I don’t have work obligations that you know, building Lego and but it really helps me to, to relax and to have some fun and to Yeah, I think it’s really good for my mental health and, and so I’m wondering Marci about your experience with with stand up, what kinds of benefits Did you see or what what changes in yourself or in your life came from, from that choice to start doing that?

Rabbi Marci Bellows
I think it’s so interesting, by the way that you picked something that connected you with your Your inner child. And I say that knowing that actually, the patterns you’re choosing are so complicated and like a child cannot build are R2D2, or New York City. And those are, you know, adult sets of Lego. But it’s still something that also connects you with something so creative and colorful and really childlike in its in what you’re doing. It’s, it’s something just pure fun to do. And that’s what I really needed. I needed something that was a fun outlet that was so different from my day to day work that was so serious and so heavy in my work as a rabbi. And so going into improv, and performance, some of the philosophy of improvisation is yes-and, where you, you’re not saying no to things, anything that someone gives you on the stage, you have to just go with And so much of sometimes being in a synagogue is saying no, and figuring out why you can’t do things, you know, the budget can’t allow this, or you know, this program can’t happen because of XYZ. But in improv, it’s Yes, we’re gonna do this. And here’s, we’re just gonna go with it. And not only that, but we’re going to go with this on the next level. So there was that. And another philosophy of improv was to follow the fear. And so I had to take things that I was normally afraid of, and just follow it to its next reasonable conclusion. And improv actually made me a better rabbi. Because I realized I could roll with anything that was thrown my way on the pulpit. And no matter what happened during a service, I was now prepared for it because I knew that I could, I could respond to anything. And it made me just more playful. It like solved. No, it untied a knot within me that had formed and knotted and knotted and knotted again, and was so knotted, that I didn’t even know it could possibly untie within me, and the improv slowly, slowly, slowly loosened it and over the years, and I even was performing in a group, you know, and I was breathing, and I rediscovered a part of myself that was so playful. I got home at night after the traffic lights turned off, and we’re just flashing yellow, you know? And it was so worth being a little tired The next day, to have rediscovered that playful part of myself, what how are you finding that building Lego and doing needlepoint has changed part of you?

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Yeah, I think with both of them, there’s a similar appeal for me, which is that there’s a pattern to follow. And there’s instructions, and I don’t have to make decisions I can just follow it’s the Lego it’s very step by step. And with needlepoint, there’s, you know, there’s usually some kind of pattern or cross stitch, there’s usually some kind of pattern to follow. And sometimes it tells you even what colors to use. And for me, I think that allows me to relax the part of my brain that gets anxious around decision making and around responsibility, you know, and this sort of weight that we carry as rabbis, you know, the weight of our community and, you know, the individuals who are coming to us looking for guidance, and the decisions that we make with with our leadership, all of that I can just sort of set aside when I when I do these activities, and just allow the pattern or the instructions to guide me and and I think it really, because it gives my brain a chance to rest from those decisions. And that kind of anxiety around decision making, then when I have to return to that to those responsibilities and, and decision making times I’m stronger, I’m more ready for it. And I don’t, that part of me doesn’t get burned out as quickly or as often. So I think in that way, it has really helped me somehow also weirdly, I think it has made it easier for me to feel less anxious when I’m not in control because it allows me to sort of channel the part of me that needs to be in control and to have a plan and to know what the next steps are. It gives me a time and a space for that it almost creates like a safe space for me to allow that side of myself to take over. And then I can more easily quiet that part of myself when I’m in situations where I can’t have a step by step plan or I’m not in control. So, so yeah, it’s it’s both of all of those kinds of activities have been have been a really helpful balance for me in my life. I’m curious Marci, we both have lots of friends who are rabbis, what other kinds of play have we heard our colleagues talking about? And we don’t necessarily need to out them by name. But can you think of other kinds of fun things that we have seen or heard of our colleagues doing, that people might might find interesting or amusing to know that their rabbis are doing in these fun and helpful ways?

Rabbi Marci Bellows
We certainly know and I’m sure a lot of people are aware of rabbis who are marathon runners and who find a lot of release in doing that, and then preparing for marathon running. And we had Rabbi Celia Surget, on our show, and she spoke about doing that.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
I was thinking also, when my dad used to work in Toronto, he and a lot of the other Toronto area rabbis, reform rabbis were part of and I think some of them still are, and interfaith clergy curling League, which, you know, is very Canadian, or very Canadian, or Eastern. We’re sure you can find one and, you know, Minnesota somewhere. Yeah, so there’s this amazing League of interfaith clergy who get together, I think, you know, once or twice a month, something like that. And they curl, which if you don’t know what curling is, look it up. It’s an amazing sport that is much, much, much harder to do than it looks like it is. And I was lucky enough to be able to do some curling with the interfaith clergy curling league as a guest. And that was such a fun way for them to be together as colleagues, but not being doing anything specifically rabbinic. They were, you know, of course, building nice relationships with other interfaith clergy, but they weren’t sitting around talking about current events or peace in the Middle East or you know, whether or not having a Passover Seder in a church is cultural appropriation, you know, they’re just curling and having fun and, and being active together. And I think, you know, that was so important for them. And so beloved, by all of them.

Rabbi Marci Bellows                                                                                                                                                                                                         It’s critical. And we know people who are a part of writing workshops, or who paint often it’s sports or artistic pursuits that people I think, really lose themselves in. And it gives them a chance to feel that much more refreshed and able to bring themselves more wholy. This is going to be upon more wholy, w-h-o-l-l-y, into the holy h-o-l-y work that they do the whole rest of the time. Because we do run the risk of being burned out, especially after the last year, but it’s but it’s all the time rabbis who and all clergy who don’t have a chance to do something that’s completely outside of the work. We do, I think really run the risk of that. So hey, clergy, who listen, feel free to let us know what you do for fun and what you do for play. Listeners, if you have any good suggestions, let us know too.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb                                                                                                                                                                                                     For sure. Such a great conversation. Marci. Thanks for bringing it to us.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Absolutely! Coming up next, our special guest.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Woohoo!

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Emma and I are so honoured to welcome to Women Rabbis Talk today as our very special guest, Rabbi Heather Miller. She is from Los Angeles originally, and she grew up in an interfaith family. Rabbi Miller was ordained in 2008, at Hebrew Union College, at the New York campus. Since ordination, Rabbi Miller has worked in large and small congregations and educational institutions as well as in hospital settings. She is the founder of Keeping It Sacred, which is what we will be hearing a lot more about later in our episode. She served as the Civilian Oversight Commissioner, overseeing the LA County Sheriff’s Department – which must have been facinating – during her term, and before that, worked in the non-profit sector. She lives in Southern California with her wife and two adorable children. We’ll hear so much more about what she’s doing now and can’t wait to hear more about her. Rabbi Heather Miller, please tell us, as we welcome you officially, what would you like us to call you during the show, and how do you like to be referred to as a rabbi?

Rabbi Heather Miller
thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here. It’s such a dream to be able to see you both and talk with you again and reconnect, even if it’s over zoom. Wonderful. Yeah, my preference is, you know, I’m always honored to be called Rabbi. It’s a title that I have taken very seriously and really hold with great respect and honor. My preference is that with the last name Rabbi Miller, as opposed to Rabbi Heather, I just grew up in a formal setting where all of the rabbis around me and I had about 10 rabbis before the end of high school because I went to a Jewish day school and was pluralistic. And there were reform and reconstructionist, conservative and modern orthodox rabbis teaching me so Rabbi-last-name is my preferred, and but please call me Heather. We’re colleagues here.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
That’s great. We will call you Heather during our conversation today. So, Heather, how and why did you choose to become a rabbi?

Rabbi Heather Miller
I’ve always cared about community organizing and justice work. I love text study. I love the intentionality and morality. I love struggling with those big questions of life. And all of that really fits together well in in the life path of being a rabbi. I took one of those surveys also at the end of college and clergy did come up, which was amazing. I always, actually in 10th grade, one of my friends, my friend, Kim Staff would say, “okay, Rabbi Miller”, because I was the leader of the traditional egalitarian minion at my high school. And I realized that there was a lot of responsibility tied to that and a lot of joy and honor. And I just, I wanted to continue to serve my community in this way.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
So when you were in college, did you not yet intend to study rabbinics?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yeah, I didn’t know that there was a path for the rabbinate. I don’t know. I guess I just thought there were little rabbis that they grew up to be big rabbis, I didn’t realize that there’s like a graduate school for this. Because it’s such an awesome path in life, that you don’t think that this is like a graduate school program. It doesn’t compute. It’s not just a mental exercise. It’s really such a holistic experience. You bring all of your spirit and morality and knowledge to to being a rabbi. And I didn’t realize that there was this path until a friend of mine in college named Farrah Berse, she and I were in the same Hebrew class. And there were only three of us in the Hebrew class, because it was Wellesley College and had a Protestant tradition. It was biblical Hebrew, not modern Hebrew at the time. And she said that she’s going to be going to rabbinical school. And I said, that’s so amazing. Like, I hope that you officiate my wedding one day, and then she came back from her year abroad. And she said she was going to become a lawyer. And I said, well, one of us has to do it. It’s too amazing to not. And like literally only at that moment did I realized that this is maybe a path that I could take. And it was I’m so grateful. I’m all always be grateful to Farrah for for giving me that for opening that door for me to recognize that this is something that someone like, like I could do, I could do this, just like she did. She was going.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
wow, what did you major in?

Rabbi Heather Miller
I double majored in peace and justice studies with a focus in Jewish history and African Studies.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Oh, is that fascinating!

Rabbi Heather Miller
So like I said, I was I’ve always been really passionate about social justice work and identity work and thinking about how how communities can survive and thrive as minority communities. And you know, in America, at least, that worry led me to that.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
And then it led to you and me meeting soon after that, which was really neat, because you and I have known each other now for a long time. I don’t know. Are you okay, mentioning that how you and I met early on?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yeah, absolutely.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
I had the pleasure in my, I guess last year, right. You know, I was a fifth year student at HUC. And I volunteered to be a student tour guide of the school and people could, like people could shadow me throughout a day. And I had the honor of having Heather with me for the day to just kind of hang out with me. Luckily,

Rabbi Heather Miller
The honor was all mine.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Seems like I didn’t scare you away?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Oh, you were the most welcoming person. You’re one of the people who you know, I thought you know, can I really do this and you were just so welcoming and affirming of who I was and all that I was and just shared, you know what was so joyful for you and you’ve made me feel like this was going to be a place where I would be welcomed and supported in my journey to to learn more and to think about how I uniquely could serve the Jewish people. And you were so clearly doing that with so much spirit. I remember when you took me to that little cafe and it was just such a nice experience. So I’m so, so grateful for you. Thank you.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
I love that. I love hearing these stories of how we’re all connected. I mean, I’ve known both of you also for a while now and I didnt ever know that story. So that’s so great.

Rabbi Heather Miller
You know, I want to say something else about that! Because I think that, you know, coming into this, I grew up in an interfaith family, right? And there were so few times when you could actually feel like you really belonged here. Like, I never really felt like I was always going to be welcomed in every space. And so what you did for me was you shared how, how are rabbis supposed to be? how are rabbis supposed to act? what is a Rabbinical institution is supposed to be? it’s supposed to be that safe, warm, welcoming, inclusive, affirming, joyful, and still can hold the seriousness of the world at the same time, and you just confirmed for me that that’s what this place would be for me. And then taking me to the classes, I got the intellectual rigor that my brain always needs. It was so so wonderful.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Oh, wow, thank you, I, that means a lot to here, and that you absolutely had a space there 100% for you. And we’ve seen that now, in the amazing work that you alone do in the Jewish community, that space was waiting for you, you know, and so we’re here celebrating it today, which is really our pleasure and our privilege to bring your work into a larger space so that more people can learn about it. It’s very exciting. So can you tell us leading up to learning more about what you’re doing now, what, post ordination, what have been some of the communities that you have served? you know, what would have been some of the settings in which you’ve worked? and then we’ll get to the really incredible and creative work you’re doing now.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Thank you so much. So I served in the nonprofit world before rabbinical school. And so even throughout rabbinical school, I’ve been involved with nonprofit social justice organizations and even working as grant writer, actually, for Jews for racial and economic justice, served an internship with the Hebrew Association of the Deaf and larger congregations and smaller congregations out in the world after I was ordained in 2008. I’ve served large and small congregations, including BCC Beth Chayim Chadashim, the world’s first LGBT founded Jewish congregation and in lots of different capacities. I’ve served in hospital hospital chaplaincy, and in educational institutions, the high school rabbi, I got to be the high school Rabbi back at my old high school that I that I grew up in, and I served as a professor at the American Jewish University of their Graduate School of Education Program, and including serving as a civilian oversight Commissioner over the LA County Sheriff’s Department that was the first civilian oversight commission that LA County had ever had. The community asked if I would interview to become Commissioner, and, you know, to ah, to represent and the Board of Supervisors hired me to do that.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
You’ve done it all. Really cool.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Oh I wrote a book too! I forgot about that.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
by the way, by the way. I mean, I think it’s so inspiring to see we’ve had conversations before on the podcast about, you know, there are some rabbinates that are very straightforward, and other rabbinates that really weave through different iterations and manifestations. And it’s really, really inspiring to hear all of the different ways that you have been a rabbi, a leader thus far, and to think about all the things that you still have ahead of you to do. So we’re excited to be talking to you about that, today.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Thank you so much. you know, I went to Wellesley College, which is a women’s college. And we had an alumni panel, and the alumni would talk about, you know, what their career paths were. And there was a panel, I remember this one panel, it was in Jewett Hall in Wellesley College, and there were five women. And they talked about their career path. And they said, for five years, I did this for seven years, they did this for two years, I did this and I realized that a career path wasn’t just always and often for women less so, you know, just you know, you’re in one position for the duration. I kind of lamented that because I thought that it would be really nice to build up in one place. But then I realized that there were such such great joys that you could have such diversity of experience, and I thought to make the most of that.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Heather, tell us about Keeping It Sacred!

Rabbi Heather Miller
Keeping It Sacred! Well, the acronym is KITS, k-i-t-s. The reason why I named it KITS is I named it after my grandmother Kit – Fruma Kit Endler. And she always made Judaism accessible and relevant and empowering and joyful and bold and meaningful. I wanted to bring that to people and uplift her memory in doing that and making sure that we could have a center for the exploration of Jewish texts and rituals, that would be all of those things. So that is how it came to be.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
That’s really cool. And where does Keeping It Sacred exist?

Rabbi Heather Miller
It exists in Southern California, technically in Aliso Viejo, California, it’s on zoom. And so we have members of keeping it sacred, regular members, I mean, like people who show up for things in England, Brazil, Canada, Cali, you know, California, New York, Indiana, Texas. And so it’s a really broad community of people who were looking for that kind of connection and deep dives into text and finding meaning and asking those big questions in life.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Which is so cool. And, and, and a very different sort of model of Jewish community than what a lot of people are used to. So I’m wondering if you can just tell us a little bit about how you sort of arrived at the idea to build a community online, as opposed to in the physical space, which is, I think, what a lot of people are used to when they think of, you know, where do I find a Jewish community? What moved you in this direction?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Well, I knew a lot you know, you always go where the people are, right? And a lot of people are online. Dah Lifnei Mi Atah Omed. Know before whom you stand. You got to know the people. So you know, there’s so many people who are online, so many people in remote areas that just don’t have access, right? Like the person in Brazil is like a plane ride away from the closest reformed congregation. So just opening up Judaism to people who wouldn’t necessarily have it is a really important value for me to, to welcome in and bring people in. I think, also, you know, I’m from Los Angeles, and even in Los Angeles, there’s like six different Reform congregations within like two miles from each other practically. And even if someone lives in that area, people are really reticent to physically go, because traffic is so bad, or at least it was before COVID. And I knew that there were you know, if I couldn’t get people to, to show up physically in LA, that there’s there needs to be a way for people to you know, there has to be something that they’re looking for that is not a bricks and mortar institution. Keeping It Sacred is done in the spirit of experimentation. I wanted to see like, what would it look like if we did create this thing? online. We did that in October 2019. And then the pandemic hit just a couple months later, and more people became more fluent with zoom, all of you and all of our colleagues, right? have been thinking about what does it mean to continue to create community in a meaningful way online. And so I was able to have these amazing conversations with people to think about what that could look like.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
You were ahead of your time. And, and just yeah, just like right at the right, sometimes the right things happen at the right moment. So what kinds of offerings can people find at Keeping it Sacred? And can you talk a little bit about sort of how Keeping it Sacred is similar to a synagogue community and how it’s different?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Absolutely. I mean, it’s similar because you know, people are people and we have big questions. There’s always a question of feeling isolation in the world, a yearning for connection, hope to explore identity in a deeper way, interest in creating personal growth, interest in comfort, we need to be comforted but also we need to be pushed to do social justice work and and you know, comfort the right? what is it? comfort, the ones who need to be comfort and discomfort, the ones who are too comfortable, whatever it is, right? human beings want to grow,

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
comfort, comfort, the afflicted, and afflict the comfortable?

Rabbi Heather Miller
that’s it Yeah, you got it, you totally got it. That’s one of the ways to think about it. But you know, there’s, there’s so much wisdom in Jewish texts, and I really wanted to bring that to the forefront. I felt like sometimes congregations can get into a solely social kind of a mode where, you know, and especially because they serve a congregation where there are a lot of people in recovery. Right? I, I became very sensitive to the idea that there was like, always alcohol around and you know, things are too social, socially focused. And I just thought that the texts were really missing, I wanted to put the text front and center at keeping it sacred. So first and foremost, we are a learning center, a center for exploring texts. And so we do a Daf Yomi daily Daf Yomi me every single day, a page of Talmud to explore what’s on the text to invite people to pull up a chair and sit at the table and think about what the rabbi’s were talking about and wrestle with it and affirm it or challenge it. So every Thursday we get together over zoom to review the past week’s readings as well. So that’s really the center we have also divrei Torah words of Torah about each of the parshiot as well and educational videos and things called a bit about the holidays, or I share a bit about what each holiday means and what it what the symbols are and things like that. Another part of keeping it sacred are the rituals. So we can do rituals over zoom. If people are in Southern California, I’m very happy to go out and do rituals, whether that’s weddings, baby namings, or other custom created rituals for people if they have a housewarming, or if they went through a miscarriage, or in remission from cancer, if there’s one if we want to hold that space, that sacred space for people, I create rituals as well. I actually just sent a an unveiling to someone who is in New Jersey, so that she could do an unveiling for her beloved father, with her family and be empowered to do so. So there’s the ritual element as well. And then the third pillar is social justice. So really, all of our interfaith work doing panels on what our different approaches to health are to safety, to working with it, you know, we partnered with the National Council for Jewish women on repro-Shabbat, about about reproductive justice. We’ve worked with Black Lives Matter, and done a lot of work on you know, we had a, yeah, there’s a book too! Marci’s holding up a book called Where Pride Dwells. Yep. So Rabbi Denise Eger edited this book called where pride dwells, and I do have a piece in it. Thank you for sharing that. The piece that I have in that, you know, I talked about teaching rituals and justice is three pillars, but they do overlap. And you can see there especially they overlap, I use the text from you know, the Mourners Kaddish and the way that we think about how to honor the dead. And then I used the Justice element of thinking about the LGBT community and making sure that there was a space for people to be who they are and all that they are. And for us, I speak of it as myself as well created this ritual for when we step off about to go to the pride parade in Los Angeles. Every year, there’s a pride parade. We have an interfaith prayer service just prior to it. So I created this blessing for you know, the users text that creates the ritual that affirms the LGBT community, all together in this one ritual. So it’s in there on that. Thank you for sharing that. And that was picked up by the Episcopal news service. So the Episcopal News Service shared that that’s that that exists too. And so now churches use it and synagogues use it and the LGBT community uses it. So and now it’s in the book

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
And we’re we’re in the process of planning, our pride celebrations and ceremonies in Cape Town and I will definitely be giving that a look.

It’s such an interesting model of community Heather and And so timely as we were saying, I’m curious about what types of people are accessing the community do you – Is it always the same group of people? Do you have people who come one time and you never see them again? Is it is it like a synagogue in that way that you have sort of regulars and drop ins? Tell us a little bit about what the community looks like and feels like?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yes. And yes, and yes. So I’m a rabbi. So a lot of people approached me for weddings, especially as someone who does LGBT weddings, who does interfaith weddings, not just that I do them, but I do them joyfully, right? So people understand that authenticity. So I get a lot of people who are looking for weddings are often that millennial set of people who who come in and who are interested in that, and they stay for the High Holidays, they stay for the holidays, as well. They bring their parents, you know, the Gen Xers who I’ve married over time, they’re bringing their babies, it’s a really great group there. So that always kind of existed when I created keeping it sacred, and we did the DAF Yomi group, the Daf Yomi group has been oftentimes retired women who are professionals who are retired doctors, lawyers, nurses, educators, I mean, really sharp people who who are just interested in exploring their Jewish life, and a deeper way that they hadn’t been able to do before. And so that group we’ve been studying, and then one person in that group said, Why don’t we do a healing circle beforehand? And that’s where we started doing rituals. So we started doing the healing circle. And then they asked, you know, so what are we doing for the High Holidays? And I said, I don’t know, what are we doing for the High Holidays? They said, Well, if you do something we will come. I said, I guess we’re doing the High Holidays, then. So I did the High Holidays, we did Hanukkah, we’ve done Passover. So it’s just an organically growing organization, or I’m actually going to put out a survey coming up in the next couple of weeks so that I can, you know, continue to keep my finger on the pulse of where people are, I have one on ones. And that’s that’s been really eye opening. And I see the direction that people you know, people are yearning for. I’m getting more and more Bar and Bat Mitzvah requests, which I never intended to necessarily start out with. But there have been real cases where people need that and want that. And so you know, there’s expansion there, there’s expansion into Friday night services, although, whenever we do Friday nights, we have to wonder about when are the Brazil people can be there for hours ahead? What about the British people? So it might be a Saturday morning thing? It’s just a really experimental space, I always try to hear what people are interested in. yesterday, actually, yesterday in class, we had a class on ritual, you know, I ask people, what rituals would you create if you could create a ritual, and they said, you know, what, I’m a single person, between my bar mitzvah, and the end of my life, the only ritual I have to look forward to is my funeral. And I want to have something in between that, that celebrates who I am, and that I’m choosing Judaism every year, and that I’m choosing this for myself. And so we just as a group, we started talking about what would it look like if we could affirm our commitment to Jewish study and Jewish growth each year? And we’re thinking about, do we do that on Shavuot? Or do we do that right before the holidays? And how does that create meaning in our lives? So when I say keeping it sacred, we want to think about what are those areas in our lives, that are screaming for attention for recognition that this life that we live this one precious life that we live is honored to the fullest extent, and that we can do that in a purposeful and meaningful way with the support of our the rich joy, that is our tradition? And how can we bring all of that together? So those are some of the ways that we continue to grow organically.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
It’s just amazing to hear how you’ve done it. So naturally. And I remember giving a sermon back in, I don’t know 2001 at my student pulpit, about the then kind of Star Trek idea of a of an online synagogue. Because, you know, it was still kind of AOL Time, you know, we still had little Nokia cell phones that played you’d played snake on them. The idea of having this online community was still really in your imagination, and you show us all the possibilities and give us the ability to dream further. It’s really incredible. And the fact that you dreamt of it before the pandemic forced us all to have to solve so many problems, and it was it was a rush and it was a panic, and it was, you know, we had to figure out what we had to do. But for you, it was a dream and it was calm, and it was, “Let’s play!” I think is really, it says so much about you and your creativity and the way in which you have built this community with all of these different folks all over the world, I totally get the timezone problem, or I guess, concern is on problem but a concern, you know, and maybe you’ll wind up with different service blocks or something, I think it would have been a really Star Trek-y sci fi concept a mere 20 years ago. And now you’ve built something that right now feels just right. So I just want to I mean, it’s not a question. It’s really just, you know, a commendation a Kol Ha-Kavod, for, for doing something that for many of our younger, especially our younger, like, Gen Y millennial folks, that so many congregations want to be like, Where are they? Well, you’re they’re speaking a different language. And you’re, and you’re speaking it?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yeah, I mean, I’m on clubhouse. And, you know, immediately there’s 1000 people who are connected with me, because I’m going where the people are, you know, and I’m not only going into the Jewish only rooms, right? So there’s rooms about, you know, we’re LGBT, come chill on the couch with us and talk, right, like the virtual couch, right? And so you tune in, and they’re like, oh, who are you? And I say, I’m a rabbi. And then all of this stuff pours out of people, you know, and I mean, non Jewish people to like, you know, what, the the damage that spiritual houses of worship have created for people. And they’re just so amazed to hear that there is a, a woman rabbi, who’s married to another woman in an interfaith, gen-over family, right? My wife converted to Judaism, but our families are interfaith, that, you know, has kids and we’re interracial as well. I mean, they’re just they don’t think that we can exist. And the power of existing is so profound. I spoke to speaking of the times, there’s actually this summer camp called Camp queer-en-teen. And it’s a summer camp that’s online. It’s an interfaith camp, created by a rising star in the Presbyterian community. And at this camp, they had me speak about being a trailblazer, which I thought was hilarious, because I don’t feel old enough to be a trailblazer. But I get it. I am, at this point. After I gave my talk, where I talked, and we had this great conversation, they built into their, their community, a place to give gratitude. And some of the kids the teens came on and just said, Thank you. And one teen said, Thank you for existing. And I just thought that that was like, what a sacred moment right? What a profound thing to say that this kid I don’t know where in the world they were. But you know, living in LA, I forget that it is kind of powerful, to just exist as a woman rabbi, to exist as as a member of the LGBT community, to exist full of love and supported by the text. And I knew that that was important, because I knew that’s the way my grandma kit made me feel about life, just supported and cheered-on and loved. And so I was just felt really glad to do that for other kids, and to be able to recognize that existence is power. And we learned that in the Black Lives Matter movement, right? They say that, you know, like, just just existing and taking time to rest. That’s a radical act, to be able to nurture yourself, we’re all pushing to do better and be better. But existence is should is is underrated, existence is underrated.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
That’s such a powerful concept. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And with our listeners, just to kind of marinate in that for a minute. Wow.

Heather, I’m also really just, I think, a little bit jealous of the way in which you’re able to just innovate based off of what people need and what people are asking for, which seems like such an obvious thing that all synagogues and Jewish communities should be able to do so often in our traditional synagogue structures, we are hampered by the bureaucracy and politics and the finances. And it’s so rare that we’re able to just offer member-driven initiatives member-driven education member-driven programming, even though that’s often what we are saying that we’re trying to do and we’re trying to engage our our members in those conversations, but I’m It’s so beautiful to hear that, that you’re able to do that and that you sort of have the freedom to do that. And that’s one of the really exciting things about the sort of entrepreneurial rabbinic world. I’d love to hear a little bit about sort of the practicalities, we have a lot of colleagues that tune in to this podcast and lots of them are also experimenting in entrepreneurial rabbinics and online community building. Can you tell us a little bit about that? The practical side of things, do the people who come to keep it sacred pay membership? Do you have donors? Sort of how does that? How do you keep keeping it sacred going? Do you have any advice for others who are looking to create non traditional Jewish communities?

Rabbi Heather Miller
We’re still an experimental phase, I read this book and I, and the person who shared with me the book was a Protestant minister, and he’s like, Hey, have you seen this? It’s a book called The Revolution Will Not Be Funded. It’s about beyond the nonprofit industrial complex, which is really fascinating, a really fascinating read. And then I actually was looking at my bookshelf the other day, and I realized that my mentor in my Africana Studies advisor had given me this book in 2007. I have a little note from her. So sorry, Professor Rollins, I should have read it earlier. The Same book. The Earlier addition. Wait a minute, I already had this book? Oh, and there’s a little note, Thank you, Professor Rollins, could have gotten there shorter. But um, anyway, so it talks about nonprofits. And it’s you know, and congregational life is a nonprofit venture, usually. And I specifically found that keeping it sacred, not as a nonprofit. There’s a thing that happens when you become, and I came from the nonprofit world, so I have seen this as well, I said, I was a grant writer, I know how, when foundations, open up grants, first of all, they can be, you know, people can be invited to apply, or if they’re open, it creates a situation where organizations start competing with each other over finite resources, it creates a situation where you’re rewarded for doing the things that the foundation decides are a priority for you to do. And there’s a lot of paperwork associated with it, which takes up your time. And it takes your time away from the thing that you are passionate about doing, which is books, like tags being with people, right. So this book really shares a lot about what the you know, and I don’t believe in everything in the book. But I do think that there’s a very valid, principled approach to creating a community that makes change that does text that welcomes people that’s outside of the nonprofit model. And so I’ve been exploring with that. I also personally didn’t come from having a lot of money in my life. And I never wanted funding to be a barrier to people. Also, in the tradition of Rabbi Akiva, who was a poor farmer didn’t start studying till he was 40, in the tradition of Rabbi Hillel, who didn’t have enough money to pay the guard where Shamaya and Avtalyon were studying, because he was so passionate about studying text, but wasn’t able to. I always wanted to make sure that all of our learning and keeping it sacred is offered for free. There is a, you know, suggested donation if people can do that. Part of it was I also didn’t, I didn’t want to charge for the the money for that for the learning. Also, I just, I think that I also didn’t want to have that conversation with people, you haven’t paid your $50. So I can’t give you the zoom link. Like, that is so not my approach. And that is not, that’s not how I want to spend my time. So I open up all of our learning, if people see the value of keeping it sacred, keeping all of its learning completely free, hopefully the people who have will contribute to a level that they are able to cover others and those who don’t have don’t, don’t have to worry about it. So keep it simple, keep it sacred. We do have some donors in the, you know, the four figure area, we have donors in the three figure donors in the two figure area and it’s just we are not a financially solvent organization. Yet, it’s something that I’m hoping to prove the model that we can be. It’s a giant leap of faith to trust that people will recognize the value in providing Jewish continuity and Jewish connection for free without the 501 c3 label and, you know, the other question then becomes, then who are you accountable to? And I think that that’s a really important piece because we don’t want to have this, you know, the Wild West, like, you know, Rabbi Miller is out there on the, you know, way out there doing our thing. You know, I want to I want to still be connected to the Union for Reform Judaism and still be under the fold and you know, obviously CCAR and, and the WRN and absolutely I serve as the board member of the WRN and that’s such a meaningful role for me and such a such an organisation that just gives back so much it does so much, you know, in the conversations with colleagues and they conversations with members of, you know, in social justice organizations, with my interfaith clergy, co-leaders, you know, I think that there’s a lot of checks and balances and accountability there. And like I said, I’m always reaching out for that listening to my people, hearing what they need, hearing what work hearing what didn’t work, based on how they’re voting with their feet, or with their clicker. So all of that. So those are some of the things that if if one of our colleagues is looking into the entrepreneurial space is to think about 501 c three or not, because we’re not here to do that, think about the funding pieces. We’re here to do the Torah. So those are some of the things that I’m thinking about.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Well, Heather, as you know, in each and every episode, we have a segment called Ask The Rabbi, where we receive listener submitted questions that we pose to our special guests. And you have a chance to answer and then Emma and I also weigh in. So today we have a question from Sarah Schwartz, who submitted a very interesting question actually quite related to the work you do. So it’s it’s really interesting, and I look forward to hearing your answer. She asks, What do you feel is missing from interfaith work in the Jewish world right now?

Rabbi Heather Miller
What’s missing from interfaith work in the world? Well, I think, primarily proximity. I think, you know, the best way to get to know your neighbors is to be with your neighbors, right? And I mean, your biblical neighbors, right, like, the people around you, I think that the the Jewish community can become quite insular. And it’s important to you know, for me, it’s easy. I’ve always had interfaith family, I’ve always had, you know, I’ve got Filipino Catholic in-laws and family in the, you know, in the Philippines, and I’ve got, you know, Protestant and agnostic, family members in Washington, DC and everywhere. And I think that it’s important that we see and recognize various human experiences very easy for us to think that the way that I grew up is the way that everybody grew up. And I saw this, especially with my work on the civilian oversight commission, overseeing the sheriff’s department, when the community asked me to put my name in the hat to apply for this position. Me? Um, you know, I have never known anyone that I know of who has been imprisoned, or you know, or had contact with the sheriff’s department negative, positive or otherwise, I’m Oh, white Jewish woman from the valley. And, you know, what could I possibly add to this conversation? And the, the community I, I called a couple of people in the community who I’ve been working with in terms of trying to advocate for civilian oversight. Because if you have that much power, if you have the power to use a weapon, like a gun on somebody, you need to have some oversight, and especially by this by civilians, so I always, I argue to bring that about, and I called some of the people who I had been talking with and working on that issue with and they said, the fact that you’re calling us and asking us means that you should do it because you are a listener and you are going to bring your intersectionality into this you’re gonna see it as a spiritual issue, right? that we always say no one gets well in a cell. And from a pastoral perspective, that is so true, that isolation, the you know, violence that occurs, that that is really, you know, you need to really hear what people are going through and because I was a commissioner, I was constantly hearing from family members of people who had died at the hands of officer involved shootings. In prison. A woman, an amazing woman named Helen Jones came and she, she said that her son was not did not hang himself in jail that like the sheriff’s had said, she said because and she pulls out from her purse, the noose. And she said, this is the noose. And she said that, look, these sheets are too thick for human beings to tear them. And they were torn perfectly. And so she was saying that this is like, you know, the sheriff’s department had a hand in in the death of john Horton, her son. And she said here, like feel it, feel it. And all the commissioners are kind of like and I said, You know, I asked her to approach me and I held that that noose. And you know, what a sacred moment like, if I were, you know, living my regular life in the valley as a white woman, I would never A) hear that story B) understand that, like, the people have real concerns over what’s happening. And see, like, I see, as a rabbi, I wanted to affirm the trust and the care with which she like the sacredness and the pain that she was feeling, and not feeling hurt. I wanted her to know that I was hearing her. And so there’s just a whole world that we don’t understand, I think because of the George Floyd video that people are starting to understand that this has been here, way back from from a long time ago. And as an Africana Studies major, we study this, like I’ve known about this for 20 years, but the average rabbi, the average, Ashka-normative Jewish person, if they don’t, if they’re not proximate, they’re not going to see these things. So be part of the community. And and so I think that an interfaith work that that is so so critical is to just be with people and open your ears to, to their stories and see what they’re what they’re going through.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Yeah, thank you. We, you’re right, it’s it’s so easy to forget that piece of the puzzle of our work as as rabbis to get so caught up in our own calendars in the synagogue, and oh, there’s another holiday coming up. Oh, you know, and to forget to reach out to the churches, in our communities, to the mosques in our communities, or even beyond, you know, as our listeners know, we’re the one synagogue in our community. So we we have to in order to have a larger community, we only have interfaith friends. And we have to reach out we have to build friends, for all kinds of reasons, including our own sense of safety and security. But you’re right, and it’s not a but it’s an and, and you’re right, we must strengthen the ties for all kinds of reasons. And so thank you for that really important reminder, of, of proximity of care, right after the horrible Pittsburgh shooting at the synagogue. It’s not fortunately, or unfortunately, I was leading a synagogue trip to Israel, and had congregations in Israel and our wonderful cantorial soloist, and our temple administrator put together a service that night, we had 450 people from the community come to our synagogue and gathered together and all the local clergy and I’m so I’m so sad, I couldn’t be there to just even witness it. And they gathered all on the sanctuary and they embraced us. And we need to do it too.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yeah. And and to make those connections, you know, I serve as the vice president of the interfaith Council of greater Rancho Santa Margarita, and we’re talking a lot about how we can bring people together along similar lines, like if we can bring all the mothers of teenagers together across faith communities, right. You know, and we can ask the question of, you know, how does your teenager feel about your expression of your religion? And how do they express their religion and just have bonding, you know, just authentic relationships? Not that we should like, go become friends with people to hear what their pains are, so we can address them social justice wise. Because that would that would I-it them, right, that that would create, you know, in the spirit of Buber of, you know, that would create a relationship where we’re using people, right, we’re not here to say like, what is your deepest pain, we want to hear it. It’s more about just be a you know, another Mom, you know, to another person or another single person to another person or, you know, just be someone who’s of faith who is not Christian and living in this world that’s dominantly Christian in America, or even South Africa, right? I’m guessing I could be wrong, but you know, You know, just just being a true friend, a pastor named Lewis Logan, he said in one of the early meetings of the black Jewish Justice Alliance, of which I’m a member as well, he said, you know, take my cell phone number, I want, I want your cell phone number, you know, I want to be there for you, and you’d be there for me. So over the years, he’s called me with, you know, someone on hospice who, you know, needs a prayer, he’s called me to talk with him about Jewish texts and economics and tzedakah, and that concept, and you know, and we’ve talked over the years about our changing clergy roles, and just just to be a friend, and just understand where people are, and, and, yeah, just be a human. What a concept, you know? Connect with people beyond what’s what I think, you know, be and I-Thou situation.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
absolutely, it’s so important in, in Toronto Marci, your story reminded me of in Toronto, there were were some years where the, the mosques, were were experiencing violence, and the Jewish community and an interfaith community created rings of peace. And we, we like stood around the mosques in like circles at the, at the times of day when they were praying to, to add additional security, and just to let them know that they weren’t alone, and that we sort of had their backs and they could just focus on prayer, and we would watch the door kind of thing. And and then, you know, that was a year or two before, before Pittsburgh, and then when when the shooting happened in Pittsburgh, they came in and did rings of peace around the synagogues in Toronto, and it was such it’s such a beautiful exchange and and those kinds of moments only happen if you have the relationships, if you know each other, if you’ve done the work, if you’ve taken the phone numbers and reached out, it’s just really important to to be reminded of that. So thanks, Heather, for, for sharing that with us.

Rabbi Heather Miller
And you can I just mention one thing is that like that really does underscore something in my mentor, Torie Osborn, who was you know, the head of the LGBT Center in LA and the National Gay and Lesbian taskforce, she talked about there’s like, times in history where you grow, she didn’t say it exactly this way, there’s time to grow. And then there’s kind of go, right, there’s times of like, where you build those relationships, and you kind of just just have the relationships and you just are part of the community. And then when those like Firestorm moments happen, you’re ready to go. You are because you like you said Emma exactly what you said you have those relationships already built up and in place. So you can do actions together as a unified group, because you’ve already had all of the conversations that are necessary to lead up to it. It’s so important.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Right. It’s its own kind of networking that you need that you need the network first and then you can activate it when you need to. So we’re going to move into Questionnaire Maher which is our rapid fire, but often not rapidly answered questionnaire where we will get to know you a little bit more. You are one of our listeners, so you know how it works. Are you ready for Questionnaire Maher?

Rabbi Heather Miller
I’m so ready.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Okay. So Heather, who was your first woman Rabbi either in your home congregation or that you were first aware of?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Rabbi Leah Kroll, eighth grade mishnah. Stephen Wise Temple. She was amazing. She lit me up in terms of Hillel and Akiva and Rabbi Yohanan Ben zakkai. And she herself was an amazing, amazing rabbi. Trailblazer.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Tell us about a woman that inspires you, Jewish or otherwise,

Rabbi Heather Miller not surprisingly, my grandma Kit. My Nana was there’s two Geminis in my life, my grandma Kit and then my wife, Melissa de la Rama. She is the most amazing partner. We’ve known each other since 2000. We’ve been together since 2003. And we got married four times because it was not legal at first. So we did the domestic partnership and the spiritual wedding, then the legal wedding. And then on our 10 year anniversary of our domestic partnership, we had another renewal of vows.She’s amazing.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Wow, that’s so beautiful. You’ve got to be really sure about someone to marry them four times.

Fill in the blank being a woman Rabbi is or women rabbis are

Rabbi Heather Miller
being a women Rabbi is every bit as sacred as you could imagine it to be.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Oh, I love that. What do you think would surprise people to learn about women rabbis?

Rabbi Heather Miller
I Think people assume we have the soft skills, but we also really have the chops for the hard skills to like. Yeah,

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
hell yeah.

Rabbi Heather Miller
That makes and leadership and all of that, vision.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Yep. Preach. Heather, do you have a favorite Jewish character from a book movie or TV show?

Rabbi Heather Miller
So in preparation for this interview I knew I should watch Yentl because I had nerve watched Yentl and I know how you love those musicals. And I have to say I was realyl touched by the charachter of Yentl. I just have to say like, I know it’s probably sound so cliche, but I had never seen it. And just her thoughts about you know, these big questions and yearning for that Torah. You know that Torah study the Talmud study, the back and forth the energy in the in the classroom and the Yeshiva and the big questions of life and that connection to her dad who was deceased. I mean, obviously, my grandma. So I just think that you know, I just really connected with Yentl and that was thank you both for inspiring me to watch to watch that musical.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
You’re welcome?

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
I know, I’m like, Marci, Are we doing something right or are we doing something wrong?

Rabbi Marci Bellows
I’m not sure! I have really mixed feelings about this.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
How do I prepare for Women Rabbis Talk Podcast? Oh I know, by watching classic Barbra Streisand movie.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Just a musical. I could have watched any musical I could have watched Wicked I that’s another one I’ve never seen. I know I probably should.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
We’ll have to have you back. I feel like Alphaba is Jewish anyway.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
Oh, for sure.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Yeah.I know, I was like Marci, which one of us is gonna burst into song first? Papa! Like, in honor of your Nana, we should be like Nana, can you hear me?

Rabbi Heather Miller
every night

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Aw. So sweet. Tlak about sacred connections?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yeah

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Heather, you’ve you’ve given us already so many beautiful examples of text. But this is another question in Questionnair Maher. So do you have a particular Jewish text teaching or value that inspires you? Or informs your life?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Yes. And that’s from the Pirkei Avot the idea that you may have a new bottle of wine with old wine in it or an old bottle with not even new wine in it. And I love that that’s kind of one of the ways that the rabbi’s say don’t judge a book by its cover. It’s when people would say you look very young to be a rabbi say, look, you know, I might be a new bottle, but I’ve got some old wine in here and right? I have life experience as well. Right. I almost died by a tumor when I was 10. You know, I’ve that’s when I really started asking those big questions that people are so much deeper than than skin. So that is that is my text.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
All the stories that we don’t know about people, right? and

Rabbi Heather Miller
yeah

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
yeah, that is a I think that’s a text we all really resonate with. I know I do. Heather, what are you thinking about these days?

Rabbi Heather Miller
So I think as I alluded to a bit, you know, this question about the nonprofit world and is, is a nonprofit, the best way to do Judaism is really the question and I’m experimenting to see if there’s another way.

Rabbi Emma Gottlieb
Well, we can’t wait to hear the answer. So please, let us know. Heather, where can our listeners find you?

Rabbi Heather Miller
Keeping it sacred dot com has all of my information email address, phone number, everything there? Facebook? Heather Ellen Miller, I did that because there’s a lot of Heather Miller’s out there. And so that’s one way to find Heather Ellen Miller, keeping it sacred. Also on Twitter and Instagram @hearabbi that’s h-e-a rabbi, or @keepingitsacred. We have the daily talmud-grams there, we’ve got people keeping it sacred our podcast and webcast that is is up and available with inspiring people who are keeping it sacred. And I’ve got to get you both on the show. That would be so amazing. Those are great places to find me.

Rabbi Marci Bellows
I have to tell you, Heather, I I so wish we could have all met your grandmother, because she sounds like such an incredible woman and such an inspiration. So I feel honored that we can get to know her through you and through the sacred work that you do. So thank you for sharing her with us.

Rabbi Heather Miller
Thank you so much. she lived to be 100 years old, so I learned a lot. So I’ll keep bringing that up. And thank you so so much both for for having me and for hearing these things and for asking these questions, always making me think, really appreciate that. Going deeper, going deeper.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai